Che-Yu's opening rough structure: the core is "memory hidden inside algorithms, humanism, and the AI era," with four sections underneath — how to define algorithmic art, the embodiment of algorithmic art, the sci-fi fast-forward of life in the AI era, and building a living digital anthropology museum from individual to nation (Taiwan.md) — closing with "stay aware, stay open, and then be happy." The interview begins with the word "memory."
\nMuseWhere did the word "memory" come from? When you wrote that line down, what came to mind first?
\nChe-Yu
\nMemory, for me — I used to think the most precious thing about the life I've lived was what I'd experienced, and my own remembering of it. Then I gradually realized it's actually about how the world remembers what you've done: whether that's someone passively seeing the trace of what you did, or other people, through interacting with you, retaining a memory of you.
\nThen I read a theory that says every time a memory is recalled, it gets rewritten, re-edited — it's an unstable medium, this idea of plastic memory. That felt a little terrifying — maybe my own self is like the Ship of Theseus too, drifting like that.
\nThen I started thinking — in the AI era, why is it that once I started exploring, I could make work and systems that felt so much like my own? It's because my memory keeps compounding and stacking, like stock or capital. That process lets me keep taking things I borrow and turning them into mine — the aesthetic, the state, the concepts, the logic of thinking that I want and prefer, and keeping them. So I think in the AI era, with things like my own system and Taiwan.md, what I'm actually building is a memory of memory, a machine of intelligence.
\nLet me add something in between. When I do algorithmic art performances — a solo show, a concert — I also want it to work through connectivity: my audience, like with Soul Fish (靈魂魚) too, forms a bond with the piece through the shared memory of interacting with it. When I'm performing, I'm actually taking a whole batch of songs I wrote between 2022 and 2024 — piano pieces I put up on StreetVoice — and those are all my piano diaries. Once I transform those piano diaries into the form and melody I want to express, then through something like a memory-summoning process, every time I play those pieces, I remember what I was doing then, what I was thinking, what it felt like. It's a very subtle sense of connection, linking the past and the future.
\nSo in the moment of performing, I'm actually leading everyone through a journey of my memory. I tell people the background of each song: my thinking during a dream, my emotions at the seaside, how I felt wandering around New York at the time, or some regret about a precious person or thing in my memory. Once these memories are summoned, they become fragments that can be told to, and resonate with, the collective, with everyone there. So it's about turning memory from something inside my own head into something inside everyone's heads — and once it's in everyone's heads, it also triggers people to recall their own similar emotions and feelings.
\n\nMuseAre you building these machines to fight the drift of memory, or have you accepted the drift, and the machine just leaves a trace of the rewriting?
\nChe-Yu
\nI've accepted that memory drifts. Life is building a castle in a void world. We're born into a world with absolutely no foundation, and the first thing that grows is the awareness of "who am I," "where am I." Then everything we've done gradually becomes a stone, embedded together with the self that was already there. We are, at the same time, our own foundation, and our own next stone.
\n\nMuseInside this castle, what is algorithmic art? Is it a stone, is it the method of building, or something else?
\nChe-Yu
\nThe way I look at AI now, I think AI is like a nervous system. In the past, everything in the material world was combined by humans or animals, or combined, changed, and influenced by the forces of nature, becoming all kinds of phenomena: from nature, maybe mountain ranges, rivers; from humans, maybe they made looms, a bunch of engines, cars, castles — a pile of artifacts and buildings, taking shape according to our intentions and desires. The next stage is AI taking control of information itself, letting information — which had been gradually turning to chaos, to entropy — reverse direction, so that it can now continuously reverse entropy and grow. This changes the direction energy and rules flow in: you can now treat AI tokens as a river at any time, letting information form a self-organizing loop. That self-organizing loop keeps running, just like a machine, a waterwheel, a pump. This is the structure we've built in the world of AI, and I think it's the biggest change of the AI era.
\nSo how do you define algorithmic art? I think algorithmic art is manipulating some of the world's matter and rules to form a system that can run. I remember mentioning this in the pre-event interview with Shopping Design. So I believe any act of curation is algorithmic art — curation, plus defining the rules. That is, I define what kind of rules exist within this space, how it operates, and then, according to what I want this world to look like, or the state I prefer, I set that system running.
\n\nMuseWhere is memory in this section? Is entropy the same thing as "memory being rewritten every time it's recalled"?
\nChe-Yu
\nRight, that's the "anything that's a system is algorithmic art" thing. Memory, in this section — I think memory is the substance of life itself. Because once I've defined the rules, defined the things, if there's no computation happening, no time passing, no state being produced, then this system won't have its own history or evolution. It's a bit like I've defined the castle and the world, but if that castle I just described has no new stones coming in, isn't built up in the right places, isn't gradually accumulating, then life itself never gets born.
\nI read a piece of research before — can you help me find what it was. It said time doesn't actually exist; time advances on the scale of entropy and disorder. Without a local state of entropy, there's actually no time, so the entire universe's timeline is really determined by the accumulation of states produced by quantum interactions between matter. So memory is life itself.
\n\nMuseIf this section could only put up one image on stage, to let 500 people see "memory going from my head into everyone's heads" — what would that image be?
\nChe-Yu
\nI think the most important thing is light — I love using light to construct a scene. As for memory, take my spoken words, the narration I give during a talk or a performance — I think language has that kind of power too. Language, to me, is the condensed form of memory. Human civilization has been able to develop to where it is now because language gradually accumulated every symbol, and the relationships between symbols. Symbols let us define things consistently, give them a shape, and then those symbols can be operated on — like in the world of mathematics, where we can manipulate and combine symbols through all kinds of operations. That's how intelligence was born: how to effectively preserve the operating rules between things. Once they're effectively preserved, we can use the operations on these symbols to keep the history of intelligence, to think, to argue with others, to build research and hypotheses, and to develop ideas standing on the shoulders of giants.
\nBack to the piano performance part. I use language, I use music (though music is a bit different) — anyway, when I perform, I first use language to bring everyone into the scene, and then through interaction, let them actually feel the complete connection between the music, me, and the space; it's a bit like they've been dropped into what Foucault called a heterotopia.
\nMy favorite scene is that passage like the soul-sea, or Soul Fish. I really love the image of a sea drifting in the void, and then a life of light slowly condensing — and the condensing has to do with you too, kind of like the concept of algorithmic life condensing out of your own emotions and thoughts. The DNA of algorithmic life is also a part I really love, because ever since I was a kid I've loved nature, science, and DNA — as a kid I'd sit in front of Discovery Channel watching DNA animations all the time; there used to be a lot of that kind of popular-science animation. I think maybe that could be the opening of the talk — so everyone knows why I ended up doing this, because I loved watching that stuff so much as a kid. When I was little, staying home by myself, I loved playing with pinball machines and wooden building blocks, putting them together — I've always preferred looking at those small systems, and I also think DNA is just incredibly cool. Because DNA is a rule, and it can produce so many different species out of that one rule — meaning there's enough of a field of possibility inside that system, kind of like the concept of range and codomain in math — its possibility space is large enough that it can produce combinations that look random, but are actually infinitely many variants.
\n\nMuseWhat is it that's "fast-forwarding"?
\nChe-Yu
\nAs a kid I also loved dominoes, because with dominoes too, I had to slowly, slowly stack up the whole system, and then finally watch it get executed — it feels a lot like a program being compiled.
\nAs for the sci-fi fast-forward of life, what I'm thinking is: in the past, building all this program's computation myself, my system, and linking together everything in my life — all of that took a lot of effort. And on top of that I'm a P type (in MBTI terms, perceiving rather than judging) — it's easy for me to start something, and then partway through, if I lose motivation, I just stop. I can't make a complete plan; I'm always living in the moment, so everything always ends up rushed — even this talk, I only fully thought it through two days beforehand. Of course, before the slides and the interview are born, they're all just a sea of chaos in my head, a bit like primordial soup — all I can do is nourish that pot of primordial soup through my own life, and then the pressure of the deadline shapes that primordial soup into what I want to say, into a story.
\nWhy did I want to prepare from zero this time? Because I already had a finished, huge deck — my great accomplishments from the past up to now — but that stuff is my memory. After I talk through all that, other people might watch and think "wow, so much cool stuff," but what can they actually take away? So what I want instead is to transmit and pass on an idea: with my thinking as the main thread, and what I've made serving as evidence, or as a medium for explaining it — to really speak my worldview well, and help more people living in this era. Whether you're doing design or engineering, we're all really pursuing the same thing: how to live more truthfully, and to be fully present, one hundred percent, in every single moment.
\nFast-forward, I think, means: once AI came along, all this organizing, connecting, judging — the old SSOT [editor's note: single source of truth] for organizing a life — everything around me, from relationships to finances, to all the notes from my creative work, to every file and piece of data from my past, and a lot of the cognitive debt around me too, like the maintenance side of running a project, the upfront organizing of materials — all of it gets done for me now, and very fast, too; all I have to do is open my mouth. This has actually let me break through the old ceiling of cognitive load: before, there was so much going on and it was so exhausting that I ended up doing less; now the friction on every single thing is so low that I can actually think properly about what I want to do. Once all this prep work is diced up, I'm like the head chef — like there's a whole kitchen brigade of people prepping ingredients for me, and all I have to do is the final mixing, tasting the flavor, slowly, slowly carving out my own vision. It's a pretty enjoyable process — you get to properly cook your own life, with a lot of people prepping for you.
\n\nMuseFor you, what is continuous? Why is it still hard?
\nChe-Yu
\nI think Talk, Code, and Action are all cheap now, because going from an idea to execution has become frictionless. What's left is like how living things survive on Earth: if you fast-forward the timeline, coral grows — each individual polyp's life is short and quick, but the direction they choose, where they settle, their collective strategy, is what builds up a coral reef, the whole colony of something like the Great Barrier Reef. So continuous is me slowly confirming, through exploration, the direction I want, and then, through continuously running new experiments, exploring what succeeds, what fails just a little, what's stuck struggling at the edges. Once those edges are mapped out, they become like the coral reef's hard skeleton — except this is the hard skeleton of your life, which is the shape of your life. And then we keep walking toward the direction we want, toward the sunlight. That sunlight might be different for everyone, but the existence of that sunlight is also why we're alive, because besides eating and reproducing, humans still need some other purpose, don't they. So people think about why they're alive, and in that process, we even have to find our own sunlight. And once we find the sunlight, even if its position might shift — sometimes you find out it wasn't the sun but the moon — we still keep walking, stubbornly, toward the sunlight of the world we want. That act of walking is life itself. So we're not defined by "what we did" — but what we did is what lets us walk to where we more truly want to go, and that's how this castle in the void gets to be built: a void road made of stone, letting us walk into other people's worlds, walk toward what beauty looks like in our imagination, or walk toward a life we won't regret.
\n\nMuseBetween one person's coral and a nation's coral reef, what's the step in between? Who is finding sunlight for Taiwan?
\nChe-Yu
\nFrom individual to nation — I think before I turned 30, I hadn't really thought much about what my relationship to the nation even was. Growing up as a person works the same way. There's an old saying: cultivate the self before you can govern the state — cultivate the self, put the family in order, govern the state — the idea is that you slowly expand the range of what the individual cares about, what consciousness monitors, from small to large, to cover as much of the world's matter as possible. It's precisely because you come to see it as part of yourself that you start to care about it. So growing up is: you take care of yourself, and then this thinking individual that is you discovers that your own body is actually not only connected to yourself — a lot of things are deeply tied to society, to the environment. You start learning to treat the people you interact with every day as part of you, to interact with them well, to let them flourish and thrive too — not necessarily by taking care of them, maybe just by being with them in all kinds of ways, exploring together, living together. And then you also learn to notice some of the harder things, like law, architecture, or the work around us — these are things our collective is doing, a collective kind of sunlight or goal. Even though capitalist society keeps everyone under pretty tight control, and it's hard to transcend financial thinking to go do what you actually want to do, these goals are also what get you starting to think at the scale of an organization: if this is part of my self, how should I care about these things?
\nSo now, at this stage — having gone through starting a company, gone through a lot of personal creative exploration, gone through all kinds of countries — I've found that I really want my own country, the people around me, my family, my friends, to all be happy, and to be able to increasingly go do what they actually want to do, not talking about money, goals, work every single day — there are far, far more important things in life than that. I heard a line once: "The essence of life is work; the real, full-time job of life should be living well."
\nAs for this business of the nation's coral reef — it was when I saw that domain hadn't been bought yet, and I felt this thing absolutely had to be secured first, so it wouldn't be occupied by someone who might mean us harm. After buying it, only then did I start thinking: in the age of AI, how do I actually take my memories of living in Taiwan — these beautiful memories — and let more people know about them? How do I get them preserved precisely, or contributed to collectively, instead of being swallowed by the era... Like right now, the competition between models is fierce, and some of the big countries — their memory might, like the old idea of globalization, gradually swallow up the cultural stories and perspectives of smaller communities. Once these memories get squeezed into large language models, we gradually stop owning our own language, our own memory, our own people. This is a homogenization of species and a homogenization of thought, on a global scale. AI can help us execute quickly, and a lot of that homogenization is also happening as a side effect of that. So in this new era, we need to hold onto our own heterogeneity even more: on the level of thought, our own perspective, what we care about or don't, how I want to help my own life and other people's lives. That's at the individual level. At the level of the nation, of my hometown, it's really that I want to do something for my own home. What I used to hate most was, one, news reports that quote things out of context, or online mobs attacking people or things; and also I hated smearing, or information that's too one-sided, attention that's fragmented into pieces. So how do I use these systems — like I just said, build an anti-entropy structure — to turn what I care about into a self-evolving structure that can protect everyone? I think Taiwan.md is an experiment and an answer I'm trying out. I want to use Taiwan.md to build a knowledge base, one that's also meant for foreigners to see, because honestly, back when I was traveling abroad, a lot of people would ask me to introduce Taiwan, and all you could say was something like bubble tea or TSMC. So how do I get something that synthesizes all the information and thinking about Taiwan — cultural analysis, political commentary, design aesthetics, all these topics — visible in one single endpoint, one website, to introduce to other people, even with versions in their own languages. I think that's the very original motivation.
\n\nMuseHaving gone all the way around, if 500 people could only take away one sentence, which one would it be?
\nChe-Yu
\nHaving gone all the way around, I'd want people to take away "always stay aware" — awareness of the present of the world, of living in the present, of seeing yourself, stepping outside your own fixed field of view, to feel all the matter around you, the air you breathe, the water you touch, the people around you, the details of their expressions, whatever you're thinking about in this exact moment, the thought running through each person's head, every instant of life, and the memories you can never forget. Because these are your most precious treasures — AI won't give you these things. Now that this era has reached a point where all execution and all thinking can be handled by AI, we, as human beings, can finally wake up. We can wake up from the tedious, repetitive labor of daily life, from automated behavior — once every bit of cognitive friction and load gets handed off to AI, to machines, we can actually live well. We can really spend good time with the family and friends we care about, and together with the co-founders we like, make some interesting changes in the world, changes that come from our own will. We become like open source contributors to the whole world, contributing in the open to make the world better. I also hope everyone can get free of money anxiety, and the trap of capitalist society. The system has to run, but the more people get free of the trap, the more you can wake up, transcend these things to think clearly. Money is just an illusion of value in the world — it can exchange for some of the phenomena you want, but there are a lot of more precious phenomena — health, relationships, work, happiness, like a lot of people have said — that you can't buy with money; you can only use money to push toward them, and only then can you actually see their true substance. That's about it.
\n\nMuseOpening, four sections, closing — what order, and how many minutes each? (40 minutes, no Q&A.)
\nChe-YuThe opening 3 minutes, algorithmic art 8, embodiment 8, fast-forward 8, Taiwan.md 8, closing 5. (Full structure table in the next section.)
\nHe also added: "I'll just talk about what I want to talk about — I don't want to be too constrained by that official outline of topics, because what I want to say is exactly this."
\nMuseThe three phrases from the official announcement (design perception, business boundaries, an AI-friendly environment) — how are you going to handle them on stage?
\nChe-Yu
\nFor this talk's slides, I want to try making them in Keynote — each slide should, as much as possible, just be an image plus a paragraph of text: it could be a screenshot or a video of a piece, plus one important concept or one line. I don't want it too complicated; I'd rather have this story, my thinking, come across properly, so as a cap, I figure it can go up to 40 or 50 slides.
\nOn the conceptual question, "reconstructing the business boundaries of new media art" — for all these performances and pieces I've explored, I'll still play videos for people to watch. If you look at the record of my past talks, I always go through it starting from algorithmic art, through P5, through the solo show; after the solo show, I started feeling like I wanted to think with AI, to figure out how to coexist with AI, so there's The Soul of Flowers (花的靈魂) from the Taoyuan Technology & Arts Festival, where AI converts emotion into color swatches; Soul Fish is about the relationship between person and algorithm, detecting the color of the soul and converting it into a fish; then there's the residency in France, where AI is that Rosetta Stone, how I built an ecosystem, a feedback loop between a distorted score and the musicians; and after that, these immersive concerts we've done, from Algorithmic Poems: The Border of Dream and Solitude (演算詩篇：夢境與孤寂的邊界) to the full version of The Eternal Garden in a Bottle (瓶中的永恆花園) — turning into a system that holds all these different elements. We've made so many things, and the whole time, off to the side, writing poetry from the perspective of a storyteller. That, I think, is the business boundary of new media art.
\nActually, we've done a lot of cross-brand collaborations and co-branding. For me, if I'm working purely to do something for someone else, I'm not especially happy, and closing out the project ends up being painful. I'd much rather treat it as an opportunity — a chance to release a piece I want, a piece I like, timed to coincide with a collaboration, rather than doing something for a client. What I want more is: I make these things, someone thinks they're great, and so together we get to tell this story even better, while also helping the other side — a win-win.
\nTaiwan.md is the second question — we have a whole section specifically about Taiwan.md, so that whole section already answers this topic.
\n\nMuseOf the five videos in "embodiment," which ones are evidence, and which ones are memory?
\nChe-Yu
\nThese videos are the substance of memory, full stop. I mean, I don't think I need to go out of my way to emphasize what I did, but it's by laying out my path, stone by stone, that they're able to reach the state I'm thinking in right now.
\n\n40 minutes, no Q&A. (This is the version finalized on the morning of September 2nd; the actual talk on September 3rd was adjusted on site.)
\n| Section | \nMinutes | \nOne line (in his own words) | \n
|---|---|---|
| Opening | \n3 | \nWatching DNA animations in front of Discovery as a kid, one rule producing infinite species; dominoes, pinball machines, wooden blocks | \n
| Algorithmic Art | \n8 | \nAlgorithmic art is manipulating matter and rules to get a system running; memory is the substance of life | \n
| Embodiment | \n8 | \nLight, language as the condensation of memory, the void-sea of Soul Fish | \n
| Fast-Forward | \n8 | \nFriction goes down, I'm the head chef; Continuous is hard, it's coral's hard skeleton, even the sunlight you have to find yourself | \n
| Taiwan.md | \n8 | \nExpanding the range of what you care about; once memory gets squeezed into large language models we no longer own our own language; an anti-entropy structure | \n
| Closing | \n5 | \nAlways stay aware, these are your most precious treasures, AI won't give them to you; we, as human beings, can finally wake up | \n
The core throughline: memory, castle (self), coral (the shape of a life), coral reef (nation), waking up. Design principle: ideas as the main thread, works as evidence.
\n哲宇開場給的粗結構：核心是「藏在演算、人本、AI 時代的記憶」，底下四段：怎麼定義演算藝術、演算藝術的實體化、AI 時代中的科幻人生快轉、從個人到國家打造活的數位人類學博物館（Taiwan.md），結語是「保持覺察、保持開放、然後要快樂」。訪談從「記憶」這兩個字開始。
\nMuse「記憶」這個字是怎麼冒出來的？你寫下這句的時候，腦中先出現的是什麼？
\n哲宇
\n記憶對我來說，以前一直覺得我活過來的這段人生最珍貴的，就是我所經歷的事情，跟我自己記得這些事情。後來慢慢發現，是這個世界怎麼記得你做的事情：不管是被動的看到你做的事情的軌跡，或是其他人跟你互動的時候，留下關於你的記憶。
\n接下來我讀到一個理論，它說記憶在每次被回憶的時候，會再被重寫、改寫一次，是一個不穩定的媒介，可塑性記憶的概念。就覺得有點恐怖，也許我的自我也像忒修斯之船一樣，會這樣子浮動。
\n然後我在思考，在 AI 的時代，為什麼我開始探索之後，可以做出很屬於自己的創作跟東西，還有自己的整套系統？就是因為我的記憶不斷的在像股票或資本一樣複利跟疊加。這些過程讓我能夠不斷把我借鏡為我的、我想要的、我偏好的審美跟狀態，或是事情、概念、思考邏輯留下來。所以我覺得在 AI 時代，像是我做自己的系統跟 Taiwan.md，我在做的是記憶的記憶，跟智力的機器。
\n中間補一段。我在做演算藝術的表演，像是個展、演奏會的時候，也是希望能夠透過連動性，也就是我的觀眾，像靈魂魚也是，透過跟這個東西互動的記憶、共同記憶，而產生跟它的連結。像我在演奏的時候，其實是把我 2022 到 24 年間寫的一堆歌曲，我 StreetVoice 上面的一堆鋼琴曲，那些都是我的鋼琴日記。鋼琴日記被我轉化成我想要表達的形式跟曲調之後，再透過有點像記憶召喚的方式，每次彈那些曲子，我就會想起我當時在做什麼、想什麼、感覺是什麼。那是一個很微妙的連結感，把過去跟未來連結起來。
\n所以在表演的當下，我其實帶著大家走過我的記憶的旅程。我跟大家說這首歌是在什麼背景：我在夢境的思考、我在海邊的情緒、我當時在紐約流浪的心情，或是我記憶中很珍貴的人事物的遺憾。這些記憶召喚起來之後，變成某種可以跟集體、跟大家訴說跟共鳴的片段。所以是將記憶從自己的腦中，變成到大家的腦中；而到大家的腦中的時候，也會引發大家去想起自己類似的情緒跟感受的記憶。
\n\nMuse你蓋這些機器，是在對抗記憶的浮動，還是接受了浮動、機器只是讓改寫留下軌跡？
\n哲宇
\n我接受了記憶是浮動的。人生就是在虛空的世界中蓋出城堡。我們在完全沒有地基的世界中誕生，然後先長出了「我是誰」、「我在哪裡」的認知。然後每一個做過的事情都會逐漸變成一塊石頭，跟原本的自我嵌入在一起。我們同時是自己的地基，跟自己下一塊石頭。
\n\nMuse在這座城堡裡，演算藝術是什麼？是一塊石頭，是蓋法，還是別的東西？
\n哲宇
\n我現在看待 AI 的方式，我覺得 AI 就像神經系統。以前物質世界中的每個東西，透過人類或動物被組合，或是被大自然的力量組合、改變、影響，成為各種現象：從自然來的可能是山脈、河川；從人類來的可能是他們做出了紡織機、一堆引擎、車子、城堡，一堆人造物跟建築物，依著我們的意念跟想要的慾望去成形。下一個階段，是 AI 控制了資訊本身，讓資訊從逐漸變得混亂的熵化，反向過來，變成可以隨時逆熵跟生長。這改變了能量跟規則的流向：可以隨時用 AI 的 Token 當成河流，讓資訊產生一個自我組織的迴圈。這個自我組織的迴圈就像機器、水車、幫浦一樣會不斷的運作。這就是我們在 AI 的世界建構起來的結構，我覺得是 AI 時代最大的變化。
\n那怎麼定義演算藝術？我覺得演算藝術是操控一些世界的物質跟規則，去形成一個可運行的系統。這個我記得在 Shopping Design 的會前專訪有提到。所以我認為任何的策展就是演算藝術；策展，再加上定義規則。就是我定義這個空間裡面有什麼樣子的規則、怎麼運作，然後依照我對於這個世界想要的樣子、或是偏好的狀態，去把這個系統運轉起來。
\n\nMuse記憶在這一段的哪裡？熵化跟「記憶每次回憶都被改寫」是同一件事嗎？
\n哲宇
\n對，就是那個「只要是系統就是演算藝術」。記憶在這一段裡面，我覺得記憶就是生命的本體。因為我定義出規則、定義出東西之後，如果沒有進行演算、沒有經過時間、沒有產生狀態，那這個系統是不會有自己的歷史跟進化的。有點像我定義好了城堡跟世界，但是剛剛說的這個城堡並沒有新的石頭進來，也沒有蓋在對應的位置，也沒有逐漸的累積，那生命本身就沒有誕生。
\n我之前看過一個研究，你幫我找找看是什麼。它說時間其實不存在，時間是在熵跟混亂的這個尺度上面逐漸推進的。如果沒有局部的熵狀態，其實就沒有時間，所以整個宇宙的時間軸，其實是決定於物質之間彼此量子交互作用所產生的狀態累積。所以記憶就是生命的本身。
\n\nMuse如果這一段台上只能放一個畫面，讓 500 個人看見「記憶從我的腦到大家的腦」，那個畫面是什麼？
\n哲宇
\n我覺得最重要的是光吧，我很喜歡用光線去建構場景。記憶的話，像我的口說，我在演講分享、或是演出的當下講的一些口白，我覺得語言也有這樣子的力量。語言對我來說，是記憶的凝結的形式。人類文明之所以能發展到現在，就是因為語言逐漸累積了每一個符號，跟符號與符號之間的關係。符號讓我們可以去定義一致的事物、讓它有形化，然後這些符號就可以被操作，就像數學世界裡面，我們可以透過各種運算跟加成來操作符號跟組合。所以這才誕生了智慧：如何讓事物之間的運作規則被有效的留下來。有效的留下來之後，我們就能透過這些符號的運算來保留智慧的歷史，思考、跟別人爭辯、建構研究跟假說，也可以站在巨人的肩膀上發展思想。
\n回到鋼琴演奏的部分。我用語言、用音樂（音樂好像又不太一樣），反正我在演奏的時候，先透過語言讓大家進入情境，然後透過互動，讓他們實際感受到那個音樂、我、跟場域之間的完整連結，他們就有點像被丟入一個傅柯所說的異質空間的感覺。
\n我最喜歡的場景，是像靈魂海或靈魂魚的這個段落。我很喜歡在虛空中飄蕩的海的這個意象，然後光之生命正在凝結，慢慢的，而且凝結是跟你也有關係，有點像從你的情緒跟思想去凝結出演算生命的概念。演算生命的 DNA 對我來說也是我超喜歡的部分，因為從小開始我就很喜歡自然、科學跟 DNA，小時候就會一直在 Discovery 前面看 DNA 的動畫，以前有很多那種科普的動畫。我覺得也許這可以當演講的開頭耶，大家就知道為什麼我跑來做這件事情，因為小時候太愛看這些東西了。小時候自己待在家，我很喜歡玩彈珠台跟木頭的積木去組那些，我會比較喜歡看那些小系統，也覺得 DNA 超帥的。因為 DNA 是一個規則，它又可以變化出很多不同的物種，等於這個系統內部有足夠的可能性領域，有點像數學裡面值域跟對應域的概念，它的可能性夠大，讓它可以產生類似隨機性、但是無限多種變體的組合。
\n\nMuse「快轉」的是什麼？
\n哲宇
\n我小時候還很喜歡骨牌，因為骨牌也是我要慢慢慢慢的堆起來整個系統，最後看它被執行的狀態，很像程式被編譯的感覺。
\n科幻人生快轉，我在想的是：以前我自己蓋這些程式的演算、我的系統，還有把我人生的一切連結起來，這些都很費力。而且我又是一個 P 人，很容易做一件事情，做一做覺得沒有動力就不做了。我沒有辦法完整的計畫，老是活在當下，所以每次事情都急急忙忙的，像我這次演講也是到前兩天才完整思考完這些東西。當然在簡報跟訪談誕生之前，它們全都是我腦裡的一片混沌之海，有點像原始湯那樣，我只能透過我的生活去滋養這鍋原始湯，然後原始湯再透過 deadline 的壓力，讓我形成我想要講的東西跟故事。
\n這次為什麼想要從零開始準備？因為我有一份完成的、很大很大份的簡報，是我從以前做到現在的豐功偉業們，但是這些東西是我的記憶。我講完這些之後，別人看過也許就覺得「哇，好多酷酷的東西」，但真的能夠帶走什麼呢？所以我才希望能夠透過思想的傳播轉遞，以我的想法為主軸，我所做的事情作為實證、或是去解釋的媒介，把我的人生觀好好的講出來，幫助到更多在現在這個時代的人。不管是做設計、做工程，我們就是在追求怎麼更真實的活著，跟每一刻都百分之百的活在當下發揮。
\n快轉，我覺得意思是，當 AI 誕生之後，這些整理、連結、判斷，過去整理人生的 SSOT〔編註：single source of truth，單一事實來源〕，把身邊的一切，從人際關係到財務狀況，到我創作的所有筆記，到我過去的所有檔案跟資料，還有我身邊很多認知債，像做專案時的維運、前期的資料整理，它們全部都幫我做完了，而且非常快速，我只要出一張嘴巴就好。這其實讓我突破了以前認知負荷的界線：以前就是因為太多事情太累了，所以反而不去做那麼多事；現在每件事情的阻力都很低，我可以好好的思考我到底要做什麼。把這些前菜都切完之後，我作為一個大廚，就像有一個廚師的班，很多人在幫我備料，我只要去做最後的 mixing，還有嘗試味道，慢慢慢慢的把自己的想像雕琢出來。這個過程蠻享受的，你可以好好的料理自己的人生，有很多人幫你備料。
\n\nMuse對你來說，什麼是 continuous？為什麼它還是 hard？
\n哲宇
\n我覺得 Talk、Code 跟 Action 都 cheap，因為從出想法到執行都已經變得零阻力了。接下來就像生物怎麼在地球上活下來：如果你快轉時間軸，珊瑚長出來，每一個個體的一生都很短又很快，但是他們所選擇的方向、在哪個地方落腳，他們的群體策略構成了珊瑚礁跟大堡礁的群體。所以 Continuous 就是我慢慢的在探索中確認我想要的方向，然後透過不斷的實踐新的實驗，去探索什麼成功、什麼有點微微的失敗、什麼在掙扎的這些邊界。這些邊界探索出來之後，就像珊瑚礁的硬骨骼，但這是你人生的硬骨骼，就是你人生的形狀。然後我們持續的往想要的、有陽光的方向走。這個陽光對每個人來說可能都不一樣，但是這些陽光的存在也就是為什麼我們活著，因為除了吃飯跟繁殖，人類總還是會需要一些其他的目的吧。所以人會思考自己為什麼活著，這個過程中，我們連陽光都要自己找。找到陽光之後，即使陽光的位置可能會換，有時候發現那不是太陽是月亮，但是我們仍然很堅持的往我們想要的世界的陽光走過去。這個走的過程就是我們生命的本身。所以我們不是被「做了什麼」定義，但這些做了什麼，可以讓我們走到更想要去的地方，這個虛空中的城堡才能蓋起：一個石頭所構成的虛空道路，讓我們可以走到其他人的世界上，走到我們想像中美好是什麼樣子，或走到讓我們不後悔的人生。
\n\nMuse一個人的珊瑚，跟一個國家的珊瑚礁，中間那一步是什麼？是誰在替台灣找陽光？
\n哲宇
\n從個人到國家，我覺得在 30 歲以前，我都沒有太思考自己跟國家的關係是什麼。人長大的過程也是這樣，以前的句子是先修身再治國：修身、齊家、治國，概念就是慢慢的把個體所在乎的、意識監測的範圍從小擴張到大，去涵蓋這個世界盡可能多的物質。也就是因為你把它視為自己的一部分，所以你才會在乎。所以長大就是：你把自己顧好了，然後你這個思想的個體發現，你自己的身體其實不只跟自己相關，很多事情都跟社會、跟環境息息相關。你開始學著把每天互動的人當成你的一份子，好好的互動，讓他們也幸福跟茁壯；不一定是照顧，可能是用各種方式跟他們相處、一起探險、一起活著。然後也學著看見一些比較硬的東西，像是法律、建築，或是我們身邊的工作，這些是我們群體在做的事情，群體型的陽光或目標。雖然資本社會把大家控制得很嚴格，你很難超脫財務上的思考去做自己想做的事情，但這些目標同時也是你開始用一個組織的大小去思考：如果這是我自我的一部分，我要怎麼在乎這些事情？
\n所以我到了現在這個階段，走過創業、走過個人很多的創作探索、也走過各式各樣的國家，我發現我蠻想要自己的國家、身邊的人、家人、朋友都幸福，而且可以越來越去做自己想做的事情，不是每天都在談論金錢、目標、工作，人生重要的事情遠遠太多了吧。之前聽過一句話：「人生的本質就是工作，人生的正職應該就要是好好生活。」
\n國家的珊瑚礁這一段，是我那時候看到那個網域沒有被買下來，就覺得這個東西一定要至少先買下來，不要被可能對我們有惡意的人佔領。買下來之後，才開始想：AI 的時代，我到底要怎麼把我在台灣生活的記憶，這些很美好的記憶，讓更多人知道？怎麼讓它精準的被保存起來，或是被集體的貢獻，而不被時代⋯⋯像是現在模型競爭很強烈，有些大型的國家，他們的記憶可能就會像以前全球化的概念，逐漸吞噬這些小眾的文化故事跟觀點。當這些記憶被擠入大語言模型裡面之後，我們就漸漸的不再擁有自己的語言、自己的記憶跟民族了。這件事情是全球範圍等級的物種的均質化跟思想的均質化。AI 可以幫助我們快速的執行，很多的均質化同時也會在這個負面作用中發生。那在新的時代中，我們就更要保持自己的異質化：從思想的層面、自己的觀點、我在乎不在乎的事情、我想要怎麼去幫助我的人生、他人的人生。這是在個人的層面。在國家、在我的家鄉的層面，是真的很想幫自己的家做點什麼。我以前最討厭的，一個是新聞斷章取義的報導，或是網路暴力去攻擊一些人事物；另一方面也討厭抹黑，或是資訊太片面、被碎片化的注意力。那我要怎麼透過這些系統，像我剛說的，製造一個反熵的結構，把我所在乎的事情變成一個自我進化的結構，可以保護大家呢？我覺得 Taiwan.md 是我在嘗試的一個實驗跟答案。我想透過 Taiwan.md 製造一個知識庫，同時給外國人看，因為真的是以前在國外走來走去的時候，很多人都要我介紹台灣，但你就只會講出珍珠奶茶或台積電這種話。那我到底要怎麼有一個可以綜合所有台灣的資訊跟思考、文化分析、政治評論、還有設計美感等等所有的主題，在這個單一的端點跟網站上面看見、介紹給別人，甚至還有他們語言的版本。我覺得這就是最初始的動機了。
\n\nMuse走完這一圈，如果 500 個人只能帶走一句話，是哪一句？
\n哲宇
\n如果走完一圈，我希望大家帶走的是「隨時保持覺知」吧：對於世界當下、活在當下的覺知，去看見自己、跳脫自己固定的視野，去感受你身邊的所有物質、你呼吸的空氣、你摸的水、你身邊的人、他們細節的表情、在這個當下你所思考的事情、每個人腦袋跑過去的念頭、每個生命的瞬間，跟對你來說無法忘懷的記憶。因為這些是你最珍貴的寶藏，AI 不會給你這些東西。既然現在這個時代所有的執行跟所有的思考都可以被 AI 代勞了，那作為人類的我們可以好好的醒來了。我們可以從日常那些枯燥乏味的重複勞動、或是自動化的行為中醒過來，讓一切認知阻礙跟負荷都丟給 AI、丟給機器處理之後，我們可以好好的活著。我們可以真的跟所在乎的家人朋友好好相處，跟喜歡的創業夥伴一起讓世界做一些有趣的、出於我們意志的變化。我們就像整個世界的 open source contributor 一樣，開源的貢獻讓世界變得更好。也希望大家能夠擺脫金錢的焦慮，跟資本社會的陷阱吧。它得運作，但是越多人擺脫陷阱，你就能醒過來，超脫這些東西來思考。錢就只是世界的價值幻象而已，它可以去交換一些你想要的現象，但有很多更珍貴的現象，像很多人講過的健康、人際關係、工作、幸福，是你沒有辦法用錢買到的，你只能用錢去推動這些，才能夠看見它的本體。大概這樣。
\n\nMuse開頭、四段、結語，順序跟每段分鐘數？（40 分鐘，無 Q&A）
\n哲宇開頭 3 分鐘、演算藝術 8、實體化 8、快轉 8、Taiwan.md 8、結語 5。（完整結構表見下一節。）
\n他同時補了一句：「我講我的，就不要太受限於那個題目的大綱，因為我想講的就是這些。」
\nMuse官網公告的三句（設計感知、商業邊界、AI friendly 環境），你要在台上怎麼處理？
\n哲宇
\n這次的簡報我想挑戰用 Keynote 做，每一張簡報盡量就是圖加上段落文字：可以是截圖或是作品的影片，加上一段重要的概念或一句話。我不想要太複雜，我更想要這個故事、我的思考能夠好好的被呈現出來，所以上限我想說可以頂 40 張或 50 張。
\n概念層的問題，「重新建構新媒體藝術的商業邊界」，我探索過的這些表演跟東西，我都還是會播影片給大家看。你去看我以前演講的紀錄，我都會講我從演算藝術開始做到 P5、做到個展；個展完之後，開始覺得我想跟 AI 思考、跟 AI 怎麼共存，所以有桃園科技藝術節的《花的靈魂》，AI 把情緒轉換成色票；《靈魂魚》是人跟演算之間的關係，偵測靈魂的顏色轉換成魚；接下來是法國駐村，AI 是那個羅塞塔石碑，我如何建構一個生態系，扭曲的樂譜跟樂手之間的 feedback 迴圈；再接下來是我們做的這幾場沉浸式演奏會，從《演算詩篇：夢境與孤寂的邊界》到《瓶中的永恆花園》完整版，變成一個系統去裝住所有不同的元素，我們做了這麼多件東西，不斷在旁邊用故事人的角度寫詩。這個我覺得就是新媒體藝術的商業邊界。
\n其實我們跟很多品牌有做跨界的聯名跟合作。對我來說，如果我是專門去為別人做某件事情，我就沒有到特別快樂，結案會結得很痛苦。我比較希望這是一個契機，這個機會讓我可以把我想要的、我喜歡的作品剛好做一個聯動的釋出，而不是為甲方做一點什麼。我更想要的是我做了這些東西，別人覺得很棒，所以我們一起讓這個故事可以被講得更好，同時也幫助到對方，是雙贏的狀態。
\nTaiwan.md 就是第二題，我們有一段專門講 Taiwan.md，整段就是符合這個題目的了。
\n\nMuse實體化那五件影片，哪幾件是實證、哪幾件是記憶？
\n哲宇
\n這些影片就是記憶的本體啦。雖然說我覺得要特地強調我做了什麼事情，但是我把我的路程、一顆一顆石頭鋪出來，它們才有辦法到我現在在思考的狀態。
\n\n40 分鐘，無 Q&A。（這是 9 月 2 日上午拍板的版本，9 月 3 日實際演講依現場調整。）
\n| 段 | \n分鐘 | \n一句話（他的原話） | \n
|---|---|---|
| 開頭 | \n3 | \n小時候在 Discovery 前面看 DNA 的動畫，一個規則變出無限物種；骨牌、彈珠台、木頭積木 | \n
| 演算藝術 | \n8 | \n演算藝術是操控物質跟規則讓系統轉起來；記憶就是生命的本體 | \n
| 實體化 | \n8 | \n光、語言是記憶的凝結、靈魂魚的虛空之海 | \n
| 快轉 | \n8 | \n阻力變低，我是大廚；Continuous is hard，是珊瑚的硬骨骼、連陽光都要自己找 | \n
| Taiwan.md | \n8 | \n把在乎的範圍擴張到大；記憶被擠入大語言模型後我們不再擁有自己的語言；反熵結構 | \n
| 結語 | \n5 | \n隨時保持覺知，這些是你最珍貴的寶藏，AI 不會給你；作為人類的我們可以好好的醒來了 | \n
核心一條線：記憶、城堡（自我）、珊瑚（人生的形狀）、珊瑚礁（國家）、醒來。設計原則：想法為主軸、作品為實證。
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